When Does Helping Someone Recover become Self-Defeating?

July 31, 2006

[gso]: hello lavender......welcome to the Friendly Mirrors chat:-)
[gso]: hello llb how are you tonight?
[lavendermoon]: hello, thank you
[llb]: ok...how are you?
[gso]: is this your first chat with us lavender?
[llb]: hi lavender
[lavendermoon]: yes, dragonfly told me about it last night
[gso]: I'm doing well llb thank you
[lavendermoon]: hi llb, nice to meet you
[gso]: well glad that you have joined us.....we are a very supportive group and I typically let the chatters set the topic
[llb]: hi lavender...it's me dragonfly
[lavendermoon]: okay, thanks so much
[lavendermoon]: lol, hi there
[llb]: hey
[gso]: i.e., if any chatter has a question or topic that they would like to discuss.....by all means......take the initiative and get us going
[llb]: i do, actually...
[gso]: llb looks like you have done some recruiting......good job
[llb]: how do you help others with ed's when struggling yourself
[System]: arsc_user_enter~~jilly~~Author's Suite
[lavendermoon]: :)
[gso]: hello jilly.....how are you
[jilly]: i'm okay thanks...i feel like it's been so long!
[jilly]: how are u?
[gso]: llb your question is "how can a person help someone with an eating disorder....if they have one themselves?"
[llb]: hi jilly...welcome back
[jilly]: thanks hun!
[llb]: yes
[gso]: glad you have joined us again jilly
[jilly]: i face that question everyday!
[llb]: yes
[gso]: well that certainly is tricky...but here is what I think
[llb]: my niece was just admitted tp hospital with anorexia
[jilly]: how old is she?
[llb]: 16
[gso]: just like the AA model, it certainly is possible for a person with an ed to provide another person with support and helpful information.
[jilly]: i think that having an ed helps understand the thoughts that consume your life
[llb]: i believe i have an understanding and can help
[llb]: lol
[System]: arsc_user_enter~~dimples~~Author's Suite
[jilly]: people who have never experienced it always tell me to "just eat"
[jilly]: you won't get fat
[llb]: hi dimples
[gso]: the mentor however, would need to be sure that they are aware of when it is getting to be too much and realize that thier illness has to take precidence over helping the other person.....easier said than done
[jilly]: there are more important things!
[System]: arsc_user_enter~~mimi~~Author's Suite
[jilly]: they really don't get it!!!!!!!!!!!11
[dimples]: hi llb
[mimi]: hi everybody
[jilly]: hi
[lavendermoon]: hi mimi
[gso]: certainly you do have an understanding that helps them llb. however, if it comes down to you getting worse in order to help another....you need to be carefull there.....
[llb]: it has triggered me really bad
[jilly]: i used to lead groups for eating disorders but really i was doing them to meet other people who were suffering as well
[gso]: hello mimi......how are you tonight?
[llb]: hi mimi
[mimi]: sorry llb, i came in late..what triggered you?
[gso]: llb that is exactly the danger......that you may deteriorate while trying to pull someone else out of it
[mimi]: hi gso, ok thanks
[mimi]: and you?
[gso]: just to catch everyone up.....llb is trying to help another ed person but has found that she, in the meantime, is getting worse herself......any thoughts for llb?
[mimi]: can she tell that person?
[jilly]: do u wish u were as sick as she is?????
[llb]: she actually is not that ill
[lavendermoon]: maybe you should think about why it is triggering you
[jilly]: that's good to hear. I find that as soon as i meet someone who is sicker than me, i get triggered
[llb]: me too
[jilly]: so freeing to be so honest here!
[gso]: llb can I ask a question.....does she not see that you need some help now?
[llb]: she doesn't
[gso]: what do you think about that?
[llb]: brb...my son is home
[gso]: or how does it make you feel?
[gso]: any other guesses about why llb is getting triggered here?
[jilly]: i wonder if she's feeling guilty
[gso]: that is a possibility jilly....llb feels guilty...can you say more
[jilly]: or angry....and it's coming out as an ed behavior
[gso]: anger.....I think we can all see why she would be angry....very good insights
[mimi]: why angry? or guilty? I think I missed something
[jilly]: i had to watch a friend go thru anorexia right after me and I was so angry because i felt like i wanted to still be where she was
[gso]: mimi.....llb is trying to help an ed person and finds that llb herself is worse off and needing more help than the other way around
[jilly]: and i felt guilty because i felt like she caught it from me!
[gso]: this person, however, is not reaching out for llb
[mimi]: thanks gso
[lavendermoon]: she needs someone to reach out to her
[gso]: BINGO lavender!!!!
[lavendermoon]: :)
[lavendermoon]: don't we all anyway
[jilly]: totally-i feel like ed's say that with our behaviors!
[lavendermoon]: yes
[jilly]: my body says for me what i can't find wors for
[jilly]: words
[gso]: some people have a hard time asking for help....so they get stuck helping others while they struggle along.....we all struggle with that to a certain extent....it is good to be sensitive to being needy.....but balance it out with allowing yourself to be needy....difficult balance to strike
[gso]: what words are those jilly?
[llb]: i'm back
[mimi]: hi again
[llb]: what did i miss?
[mimi]: can you see what was said?
[jilly]: we were trying to help figure what triggered you!
[gso]: llb you were saying that your friend is needy and you are having difficulty yourself....I asked you what you thought or felt about that
[jilly]: but putting ourselves in ur shoes
[lavendermoon]: jilly, I would like to hear more about what gso asked you
[llb]: i want to help
[jilly]: about the words?
[lavendermoon]: yes
[gso]: yes jilly
[jilly]: i guess like when i exercise for 3 hrs at a time and almost pass out from not eating-it tells people that I'm having a hard time right now
[jilly]: it usually expresses that I'm scared about an upcoming change, sad about something, nervous, anxious, angry etc
[llb]: it breaks my heart seeing her go through this
[lavendermoon]: okay, sometimes I wonder what I'm trying to say
[jilly]: and I'm never comfortable to just say it so instead I use my body and get really sick and then people ask me what's going on!
[gso]: does it really tell them that? jilly? how would we know ?
[jilly]: quite manipulative i guess!
[lavendermoon]: I think I just want to hurt myself
[gso]: that is OK....but what about the people who assume it is because of something else (something else is making you sick)?
[jilly]: because it gives me a chance to say "it's not about the food-I'm nervous about a,b,c"
[lavendermoon]: like, I really don't care
[jilly]: hurt urself in waht way?
[lavendermoon]: by being undernourished
[gso]: lavender are saying you feel that way now? like you don't care
[lavendermoon]: yes
[jilly]: who else are u trying to hurt lavender?
[lavendermoon]: good question jilly
[jilly]: i can understand that feeling!
[gso]: what I am struggling with is this "why do you have to hurt yourself for needing something?
[jilly]: because it sucks to need something!
[gso]: you can all say that you are trying to communicate something to someone.....what happens when you use words to do that?
[lavendermoon]: for me, I don't deserve anything
[jilly]: u get emotional and i hate that
[jilly]: i do whatever i can to not cry
[llb]: definitely
[jilly]: but when i don't eat for days, i cry for no reason so it works against me!
[gso]: emotions are painful enough.....
[gso]: feeling vulnerable is hard enough.......it seems that some of you add another layer of difficulty to the already uncomfortable situation
[jilly]: exactly
[jilly]: lavender-why do u feel u deserve to hurt urself?
[lavendermoon]: jilly, I've been in therapy for so long and haven't quit figured that out yet..but it's a very strong feeling
[gso]: any other thought on why folks hurt and punish themselves for being needY?
[jilly]: what would ur body say if u were using words right now instead of starvation?
[jilly]: maybe because needs haven't been met in the pst
[lavendermoon]: yes, I think so
[gso]: that is a distinct possibility jilly
[jilly]: but that's not the case for me at all so I have no idea why I feel that way!
[lavendermoon]: or even in the present
[System]: arsc_user_enter~~llb~~Author's Suite
[jilly]: ya-that's more accurate
[llb]: sorry...computer sloooow
[jilly]: i wonder if u guys have any ideas about this thing I'm wondering
[jilly]: I have the best mom...she's incredible and has always met all my needs
[gso]: some people hurt themselves in order to beat themselves to the punch so to speak.....hurt themselves so that when they get hurt by another person....they feel it is jsutified
[jilly]: yet I have a huge desire to be mothered by so many other people-what is that about??????/
[llb]: or that nobody can hurt them as bad as they can hurt themselves
[gso]: jilly sounds like you have a nice and broad definition of what a good enough mother is.....that is wonderful
[lavendermoon]: I agree gso
[lavendermoon]: about hurting ourselves
[gso]: so llb......for some.....they get a feeling of what....knowing that they are the best at making themselves hurt....
[jilly]: that's so sad guys
[gso]: what does that do for them possibly......that they know they are the best at making themselves hurt?
[jilly]: i don't equate eating disorders with making ourselves hurt-i think it makes me feel better
[lavendermoon]: protect them from others
[gso]: jily you are right.....there are all types of additional problems for some with ed's
[gso]: so hurting themselves helps them cope with being hurt bu others....that makes alot of sense.
[jilly]: interesting to hear that some look at starvation, over exercising etc and hurting urself
[lavendermoon]: yes
[lavendermoon]: in reality it is jilly
[jilly]: self fulfilling
[lavendermoon]: it can be very dangerous
[jilly]: i don't see it that wya-
[llb]: it makes them stop if they know it doesn't hurt you
[gso]: it makes being abused or hurt by someone "pale" in comparison.....so the other person can be "not that bad"
[jilly]: when i faint-it's the best feeling in the world
[jilly]: i feel like i mastered it!
[jilly]: wow! what an interesting take on it
[jilly]: i totally learned something here tonight
[lavendermoon]: wow, gso...you got that right
[jilly]: i thought everyone looked at ed's as a friend!
[jilly]: i guess hurting yourself can be seen as a learned behavior in that context
[gso]: now that is an understandable coping skill when you are being abused......but what do you do when no one else is hurting you.....when you are th eonly one left that is hurting you?
[gso]: should your friends let it continue?
[jilly]: and why would u want to hurt yourself more when u have been so badly traumatized?
[llb]: so physically hurting yourself takes away the emotional pain
[llb]: there is no "letting"
[llb]: you can't stop someone
[jilly]: my ed is totally anxiety based-it's not masking any physical or emotional pain
[dimples]: because you feel that is what you deserve
[gso]: I understand llb it is scary to think about losing your trusted coping skill
[jilly]: that is so not what u deserve!
[mimi]: hi dimples
[jilly]: no one ever deserves that
[dimples]: hi mimi
[llb]: it is more of a punishment than a coping skill for me
[jilly]: in what way?
[gso]: I see teens who have survived physical abuse and they re-enact the pain on themselves to test and see if anyone cares
[mimi]: gso, how can I reach out to someone if I know they're hurting?
[llb]: i don't do it to see if anyone cares
[jilly]: what would u like someone to have done for u?
[llb]: i don't share it with others
[jilly]: it's not visible llb?
[llb]: mostly not
[jilly]: the best question someone asked me to help figure out what the ed was about was "what are u avoiding????"
[jilly]: taht opened up so many doors for me!
[gso]: mimi that is a good question
[mimi]: jilly, I think Im more outspoken but if I see someone I think who is hurting but are very shy I don't always know what to do
[gso]: two things are important to reach out to someone
[gso]: first......let them know that you care and want them to feel better
[gso]: second, don't claim that you are a perfect caregiver......but let thme know that you will try the best way you know howssible
[gso]: third......tell them that it is difficult to sit back and ignore what they are foing.....that ignoring is intolerable
[gso]: some people who self harm try very hard to help people ignore it
[gso]: it is not a deliberate lie per se.....it is just that to be so open is intolerable for some
[llb]: true
[jilly]: very true
[gso]: is anyone in this chat worried about anyone in particular?
[llb]: i'm worried about my niece
[llb]: but not with self harm
[mimi]: you just made me realize when I binged and an old friend made me talk about it I got real uptight
[jilly]: what are u worried about llb-with ur niece?
[llb]: dealing with anorexia and all that goes with it
[jilly]: i get that way whenever someone talks to me about food!
[llb]: hopefully not self injury
[jilly]: do u think she'll recover?
[gso]: mimi it is hard to be real and in the moment if you have an addiction of any sport.....so don't let anyone minimize your effort there......being real is easier said than done
[llb]: yes
[gso]: llb how old is she?
[llb]: 16
[gso]: how is her support system?
[jilly]: hard enough without anorexia!
[jilly]: i think it's important,llb, to separate yourself and not become enmeshed with her eating disorder
[llb]: they like to make everything about them
[llb]: trying to get them see it's not about them
[jilly]: the purpose is probably different than urs and although the behaviors may be similar, you are both dealing with different challenges
[jilly]: and at completely different life stages
[jilly]: maybe it's okay to let her see that everything can be about her
[llb]: exactly
[jilly]: my parents always told me it's not all about me and so I wished it was!
[jilly]: it doesn't always have to be all about her but it's okay to let her feel safe for awhile
[gso]: llb, please be careful.....so much of her progress is going to depend upon her immediate family......so many times I tragically see the child work their tail off in treatment....only to have thier support system undo it upon discharge......
[llb]: or how much you are destroying everything
[gso]: this, my friend, is excruciatingly difficult for even a skilled therapist to undo,,,,,none the less am aunt
[llb]: i know...i think now she would rather stay inpatient
[jilly]: definitely-hopefully they are doing some family counseling
[llb]: they are
[jilly]: an eating disorder is a family problem in my eyes
[jilly]: gso-do u get bored and annoyed with clients who are really resistant?
[gso]: llb since you are afraid of severe relapse with this child, all you can do is try to undo her fears of long term treatment........help her see partial hospitalization as her new family
[gso]: jilly what a mature question.....let me think for a moment
[jilly]: k..i'm excited!
[llb]: but i don't want her to make this her life
[gso]: yes jilly......I get frustrated but have been trained to use the feelings for the therapy.....i.e., if I'm frustrated......the patient must be too.....
[gso]: or if I feel stuck......we talk about the patient being stuck.....not necessarily my feeling frustrated......
[jilly]: so true-do u ever wish the patient would stop coming to see you-find another therapist etc
[gso]: so in other words......a therapist should pay attention to how a patient makes them feel.....but ask themselves....how can I use my own feelings to help this person get better.
[gso]: jilly never because of a lack of progress..
[gso]: I wlaked out on a client that was verbally abusive to me last week......I don't think I can work with him
[gso]: walked
[mimi]: wow
[jilly]: but not because u were bored or frustrated
[gso]: never......
[jilly]: that was a brave move!probably taught him something
[llb]: ouch
[gso]: yes......but even with this guy.....I wanted to show his children how to set limits with him.....so (I guess) there was a therapeutic benefit to my actions
[gso]: maybe not :-)
[mimi]: or he was too much out of touch to care
[jilly]: i feel like u are a great therapist!
[gso]: thank you jilly but these chats are light and fun....I think I'm a bit more stoic in session....
[jilly]: thanks for the chat tonight guys!
[gso]: well thank you all for chatting and this was a really enlightening chat see you all next week good night
[mimi]: good night jilly
[jilly]: good night everyone. xoxox
[mimi]: good night gso, and thanks
[lavendermoon]: good night and thank you
[gso]: you are all welcome and so deserve to listen to yourselves
[mimi]: good night lavendermoon, dimples and llb
[llb]: thank you...good night
[dimples]: good night
[lavendermoon]: good night everyone, stay safe
[llb]: bye lavender...so glad you came